emerging church, emergent, simple church, house church, home church.

Monday, August 28

ministry or minister?

This is just so spot on I couldn't not repeat it:

A few weeks ago I was chatting with a friend about his decision to move to an inner city neighbourhood. At first he had grand plans to start all kinds of ministries when God stopped him. My friend heard God tell him the neighbourhood doesn't need another ministry. It needs another minister. As that thought has been rolling around my head it has come to be very profound for me. It articulates something I've been working through especially with my house church experiments.

Most ministry that occurs in a church is through a church program. In most church programs a few individuals conduct ministry (usually teaching or preaching) to a large group of people. There is certainly nothing wrong with this. However when almost all ministry follows this pattern we have a problem. We become insulated from each other. Even as someone who has taught and preached I can tell you it is a lot easier to preach to crowd than it is to get in to the nitty gritty details of someone's life. It is also much easier to sit in a crowd and listen to someone talk than it is to open your life up to others.

I think this is the essential difference between simple churches and regular churches. They shift the emphasis away from centralized ministry and become ministers. They open up their lives, their homes and even their fridges to the purposes of God. There is a huge cost to this.

The cost of being a minister of the gospel is too high. It means we have to deal with our own emotional issues and become vulnerable enough to open ourselves to healing. It means forgiving those who have wronged us. It means loving people who might reject us or return our love with contempt. It means becoming people of integrity who honestly address the hidden sin in their lives.

I think this is why we have so many ministries and not enough ministers. One can teach or preach to a faceless crowd and not have to deal with their personal issues or sin.

Church is the way it is because it is the way we want it. Deep down inside at a semi-conscious level we decided the cost of being a minister, the cost of being a disciple is too much and we stick with the status quo. We may recognize their are problems. We tinker with programs and convince ourselves that there really is a legitimate chance this going to make a difference. Nowadays people innovate by adding in couches or video projectors or art installations. In the end the more things change the more they remain the same.

Check out Leighton Tebay's blog.

posted by alexander @ 10:01 AM 1 comments

1 Comments:

Ken Sorrell has a lot to say about this subject on his blog. For starters try this link. There is definitely a difference between "mission" and "ministry."

By GuyMuse, at 2:58 PM

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Saturday, August 26

victor choudhrie 2

WHAT DID JESUS SAY AND WHAT HE DID NOT SAY

• Jesus never asked you to worship only on Sundays. His disciples worshipped daily, broke bread from house to house and the Lord added to the church daily and the churches were planted daily. ( Acts 2: 46-47; 16: 5; Heb. 3: 13)

• Jesus did not say that you appoint qualified professional pastors. He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers to equip His church. (Eph. 4: 11-12)

• Jesus never said that only the pastors can serve bread and wine. Jesus served roast lamb, bread, bitter herb and wine for the last supper. Whenever His disciples gathered they shared Agape meals together in His remembrance. (Exo. 12: 8; 1 Cor. 11: 20-26)

• Jesus did not say that you should tithe. According to His teachings, the disciples opened their homes and shared their possessions with others so that no one lacked anything. (Acts 4: 32-34; Deut. 8: 17-18)

• Jesus did not ask you to build a church building. He said God does not live in houses made with human hands because the heaven is His throne and the earth is His foot stool. Now we are the temple of the living God. (Acts 7: 48-49; 2 Cor. 6: 16; 1 Cor. 3: 9)

• Jesus did not say that only the Pastors can baptize. Jesus said you go and make disciples and baptize them. (Matt. 28: 19)

• Jesus did not ask the pastor to bury. He said let the dead bury the dead, you go and raise the dead. (Luke 9: 60; Matt. 10: 8)

• Jesus did not ask you to follow the church program. He said follow me and I will make you fishers of men. He did not ask you to send believers to Sunday service or the Bible school. He said send the laborers to the harvest fields. He said he who gathers is with Me and he who scatters is against Me. (Matt. 4: 19, 9: 38, 12: 30)

• Jesus did not ask you to organize crusades and conventions. He will not judge you on the basis of large crowds or the wonderful worship and beautiful music. He will judge on what you did for the little and the least of the world. (Matt. 25: 31-46,18: 3-6; Isa. 58: 6-9)

• Jesus did not say that only men can talk in the church and the women should cover their head and keep quiet. He made them talk, even allowed them to argue with Him in public. ( Luke 10: 40; Mark 7: 24-30)

• Jesus did not say that you are just a layman. He bought you with His blood and ordained you priest and king. As royal priests, make disciples, baptize, equip fishers of men and rule on earth. (Rev. 5: 9-10; 1 Pet 2: 9)

posted by alexander @ 11:20 AM 10 comments

10 Comments:

Great stuff! I thought the previous Choudhrie post was good, this is even better! What is your source, where are you quoting from? I would love to read more.

By GuyMuse, at 12:52 AM

I went ahead and linked this post on my own blog http://guymuse.blogspot.com

By GuyMuse, at 10:47 PM

Some of Victors material is here: http://www.freewebs.com/housechurch/index1.html
I got a book he has written from his wife Bindhu and a set of DVDs capturing his SCP training material. his email address is on the web site maybe you could get them to mail it?

By alexander, at 8:54 AM

Great post. been listening to a Martyn Joseph track called 'He Never Said' recently - got me thinking; this post more-so. Thanks for posting this stuff.

By Andy, at 9:55 PM

Found you at Headphonaught's nanolog and liked your post! THANK YOU!

By Existential Punk, at 6:04 AM

I LOVE this post- sooo true!

Thank you for this. Please visit my new blog sometime and add to the discussion:

http://signs-n-wonderz.blogspot.com

God bless you in your journey!

By Trailady, at 1:17 PM

for more info on Victor Choudhrie stuff try: http://thechurchinyourhouse.blogspot.com/
www.indiagateway.net/operation

By Victor Choudhrie, at 6:03 AM

This post falls into the same danger that many Christians fall into, namely, using select texts to justify a position without looking at the context of those verses. Much of what is said is true but there are also some glaring errors in it. Read it again but look at the verses in context and also try to understand the cultural setting of the time.

By Anonymous, at 8:35 AM

Hey 'anonymous', thanks for your comment; don't mind some criticism here but would prefer people to put their name to their criticism!
I normally delete anonymous comments. but i'll leave this one up so long as you leave your name next time.
thanks.

By alexander, at 8:40 AM

Again, brilliant post and for the most part in total agreement. Keep speaking out! THIS IS THE WAY TO GO! If we think about it, Jesus Himself went against organised religion and that's all that many of todays denominations are!

God bless you all!
Jacquie

By Jacquie, at 9:14 AM

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Friday, August 25

a passage from india - why mince words?

CHANGING FROM TRADITIONAL CHURCH TO NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH FIFTEEN ESSENTIAL STEPS

1. Replace professional clergy with Priesthood of all Believers with authority to baptize, break bread and equip fishers of men. (1 Peter 2:9)

2. Replace Church building with "House of Peace." (Luke 10:5-9; Matt. 10:11-13)

3. Replace programmed Sunday service with daily informal gatherings. The Bride of Christ must have intimacy with her Lord every day and not just for a couple of hours a week lest she become unfaithful. (Acts 2:46-47; Hebrew 3:13)

4. Replace tithing with sharing the enormous financial resources and goodwill available in Christian homes. (Deut. 8:17-18; Acts 5:32-34)

5. Replace the "Crumb and Sip" Holy Communion with simple "Community meals" eaten together with gladness from house to house. (Acts 2:46; 1 Cor 11:20-23)

6. Replace loud music with speaking to each other in psalms and spiritual songs making melody in your heart. (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16)

7. Replace the spectator church to participatory, interactive, prophetic and Missionary sending church. (1 Cor 14:26-31; Acts 13:13)

8. Replace organizational and denominational churches with citywide network of house churches. (Romans 16:3-15)

9. Replace barren church with multiplication. The Bride must not remain barren, but reproduce and fill the earth. (Acts 1: 8; 1 Cor 9: 19-30)

10. Replace submitting to one man - by submitting to each other. We must encourage, comfort, exhort, edify and serve one another. (Galatians 5: 13; Eph. 4: 2, 15)

11. Replace purposeless church with a goal oriented mandate to disciple nations. (Romans 15: 20; Matt. 28: 19)

12. Replace powerless and fruitless church with militants who heal the sick, raise the dead, expel the demons, bind the ‘strongman’ and plunder his possessions. (Matt 11:12, 12:29)

13. Replace all presidents, directors, chairman, secretaries and all the other non-biblical titles with apostles, prophets, and the fivefold ministry gifted elders. Change from a dead organization to living organism. (Eph 4:11; Titus 1:5-9)

14. Replace all Sunday schools, Bible schools, and prayer cells and cottage meetings and call them full-fledged churches. So that they can disciple, baptize, break bread, equip and send missionaries. (1 Cor 16:19; Col 4:15)

15. Replace all selfish goats who are members for hatching, matching and dispatching with sheep who take care of the hungry, thirsty, naked, strangers, sick and the prisoners. (Matt. 25:31-46)

Victor Choudhrie is a cancer surgeon by profession. He is a senior Fellow of the American and British colleges of surgeons. He quit his job as the Director (CEO) of the Christian Medical college, Ludhiana in Punjab, India in 1992 to take up full time Church planting ministry in central India. His wife Bindu is also in full time church planting ministry, equipping women to be house church leaders and trainers. God has blessed this ministry abundantly. Large numbers of grassroots level leaders have been trained who have planted thousands of house churches all over India as a result.

posted by alexander @ 8:38 AM 6 comments

6 Comments:

I like the sound of this Choudhrie chap. Keep telling the story.

By Ross Garner, at 5:30 PM

I love it! But easier said than done. The whole "replacing" is something we would love to see, but it seems so far away from our present reality. The only way I know to carry out Choudhrie's exhortations is to start from scratch with new believers, but even so tradition has such a grasp upon us all!

By GuyMuse, at 12:48 AM

mnn i think the heart of allot of what he's saying is great but i do find the whole replacing language unhelpful as its likely to creaty unharmony and disunity in the body of christ as a whole

in creating scisms i think you might end up pushing people in the kingdom out because of polarisation,

why spend so much energy trying to move a giant dinosaur when you can plant an acorn as a seed and if god is behind it it will out grown the dino

By Anonymous, at 7:56 PM

Awesome post! I am very excited to find so many people in the blogosphere who 'get it'. We are a growing community of like-minded people who want something REAL- not rituals.

Blessings upon you!

By Trailady, at 1:19 PM

Dear Dr. Choudhrie,

I came to Christ from a Muslim background 15 years ago. Been an active member of what I know as "the church" all these years. I feel that the church of the present age is purposeless, gutless, and powerless. This is not the church that Jesus said that He is building; the one against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

You are absolutely correct! I realize that the house church IS God's method to disciple the nations.

By Manoj, at 5:56 AM

AMAZING and all I can add is AMEN!! That is the way church is supposed to be!

By Jacquie, at 9:11 AM

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Thursday, August 24

a passage to india

A friend from Bristol brought an apostolic church planter from India over to Bath for the evening to hang out with a few of us.

I first met John (not his real name) in South Africa earlier this year and heard some of his story then. Geoff, who brought him over has been visiting and helping him in India for several years. It was a very challenging, encouraging and provocative evening to put it mildly.

Saved at 14 and called to ministry at 18 John left home to attend Bible school. In '98 having planted and grown a successful church he was challenged by Victor Choudhrie, an apostolic church planter, to begin training and sending house church planters. After training under Choudhrie he set off planting and training. Since 2000 they have planted over 400 churches, which have on average 30 people and each church usually always plants at least one more church beyond themselves; some go on and plant several more. They have a training centre and have trained 100's of leaders and planters. They have 40 full time planters, both men and women. Opposition and persecution is common and growing. Many are attacked and beaten or worse but all their planters are ready and willing to lay down even their lives to take the gospel to villages where Jesus is not known. John himself, with his wife is due in court next month facing charges of 'converting' people to christianity. They frequently receive threatening telephone calls; to which John replies 'you do your work and I will do mine. I am not frightened of you.'

In pairs the church planters will first prayer-walk, while fasting, in a new village. They will continue to do this (binding the strongholds and inviting Gods power to fill the place) everyday for at least 3 months until they begin to see signs of responsiveness. They then open a house of prayer where they will pray for any who are sick or troubled. Miracles begin to happen and then they share Jesus with those who respond. From this one or two house churches are started. The planters identify one or two potential leaders and begin training them. These leaders also attend the 21 day church planters training at the taining centre. They are charged nothing for this but have to trust God to feed their families while they are away. It takes about a year to plant and establish each new church.

We asked John what his thoughts were about the church in the UK. Alongside the usual challenges: materialism, reluctance to change etc, he said 'you think too much' and 'you have to be willing to take risks, to get out of the boat and walk on water.' For their planters the risks are obvious - and costly - even their lives, but for us it may mean risking our reputation or our material comforts.

We were left in no doubt that without first binding the strongman in prayer & fasting then releasing Gods power into an area we will never see people respond. In India they tested this by sending 2 pairs of planters to similar and nearby villages. In one they spent 3 months prayer walking and in the other they went straight in to share the gospel and pray for people. In the former there is now a strong church of 40 in the latter they were chased out of the village within a month and have never been able to plant a church there. Selah...

posted by alexander @ 11:25 AM 3 comments

3 Comments:

I am absolutely no expert and probably someone who thinks too much but in your example of 2 pairs of church planters, did one pair just go in and spend 3 months getting to know people or go in gang busters giving folks "the message" instead of "being the message"? Nobody likes to be prosletized - what's your reaction to a couple of Mormons at the front door?

Once again I'm almost totally ignorant about these things but I just don't see things like prayer walking in the new testament.

I'm sure the folks that prayer walked gave the villagers time to get to know them and surely they stopped for a chat and even helped out folks occasionally.

Do you think the example given as evidence is just a little too convenient.

Anyway, peace from Australia.
Ian

By Ian, at 5:24 AM

Ian hi, thnks for the thought provoking comments. I'm no expert either having barely managed to plant 2 churches. but I'm always ready to learn from a brother who has seen over 400 planted and in the midst of persecution, albeit from a very different culture. I dont really know the answer to your first question, though I suspect going in obedience, willing to suffer violent oppostion even death, having given up all security of home and work to share the good news with the poorest of the poor I reckon these men and women are probably doing a pretty good at "being the message" as well as giving the message.

Prayer walking - yes maybe you're right. though whatever you call it it basically comes down to the need to 'go', pray and bind the strong man so you can take his 'possessions'. Also, when Jesus sent the 12 and 70 out ahead of him and told them not to stop and talk on the way - I see them walking into a town - I wonder if they were praying? I suspect yes!

How do you mean this example is a little too 'convenient'? after planting 400 churches I had the sense that although yashwant didn't have all the answers he certainly knew a heck of a lot more than we did!

I dont know, you may be right to question these things but for me I'm just trying to do what God has said to me to do; however questionable others feel it is.

By alexander, at 12:13 PM

Hi Alexander,

Thanks for such a gracious reply.

2 churches is more than my 0 churches so well done and 400 churches is something that is beyond comprehension. Wonderful but certainly beyond the bounds of my experience here in a western, albeit small in population, country.

My comment about being convenient was directly related to the example given. Real life does not often parallel the scientific method so please disregard what was said. I suppose I've sat in too many sermons where real life examples ended up being anecdotal and sourced from books which quoted from books which quoted from ... you get the picture.

At the moment I'm in a transition phase and trying to work out how to express faith which works hence my comment about being the message rather than falling into the trap of just exchanging information. So far I've not been able to link up with anyone locally who is working through the same issues but a good side of this is that God is becoming more real and important.

When I have a bit more of Christ's wisdom and knowledge and real life experience I'll make a comment of substance. In the meantime thanks for your blog and I'm going to take time to work through your online book.

I live in a smallish rural town in Australia and I probably spend far too much time looking at what other folks are doing in more exotic locations.

Peace and goodwill,
Ian

By Ian, at 12:18 PM

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Wednesday, August 2

so you don't want to go to church anymore? 6/6

Here's the book to download.

Final blast on the subject of leadership:

“If church can be this simple, John, how do leaders fit in all of this? Don’t we need elders and pastors and apostles?”

“For what?”

“Doesn’t someone need to be in charge and organize things so people will know what to do?” Marvin was almost beside himself. I cringed inside knowing he wasn’t going to hear what he wanted.

“Why, so people can follow someone else instead of following Jesus? Don’t you see we already have a leader? The church gives Jesus first place in everything and it will refuse to let anyone else crawl up in his seat.”

“So leaders aren’t important either?”

“Not the way you’ve been taught to think of them. One can hardly conceive of body life today without an organization and a leader shaping others with their vision. Some love to lead; others desperately want to be led. This system has made God’s people so passive most can’t even imagine living without a human leader to identify with. Then we wonder why our spirituality falls so painfully short. Read through the New Testament again and you’ll find there is very little focus on anything like leadership as we’ve come to think of it today.”

“But there were elders and apostles and pastors, weren’t there?”

“There were, but they weren’t out front leading people after their personal visions, they were behind the scenes doing exactly what you have on your heart to do, Marvin — helping people to live deeply in Christ so that he can lead them! Elders won’t end up managing machinery, but equipping followers by helping them find a real relationship with the living God. That’s why he asked us to help people become his disciples and why he said that he would build his church. Let’s focus on our task and let him do his.“

“But where do we find this kind of leader today?”

“Don’t look for leaders as you’ve come to think of them, think of brothers and sisters who are a bit further along the journey than you are. They’re all around you—in this city and this yard.”

“But how do we know who they are if they’re not designated?”

“My question would be, how do we know if they really are servant leaders just because they have a title? Haven’t you known many so-called pastors or elders who didn’t have the spiritual maturity to back it up? Didn’t Jesus tell us that those who facilitate within this family are not those who exercise authority over others, but those who serve? Is it really that difficult to tell who they are?”

posted by alexander @ 1:18 PM 3 comments

3 Comments:

I like this book! It helped us a lot on our journey :-)

By .:unterwegs:., at 8:54 PM

Great post, very helpful. I am reminded of the story in Exodus when God wanted the whole nation up the hill but they sent Moses, or when they asked for a king. Maybe there's a theme of God wanting a different kind of leader.

By David, at 10:02 PM

Bang on David. various authors like stuart murray go on & on about the evils of constantine and christendom etc but for me it goes back to something inherent in mankind which as you rightly identified is exposed through those 2 examples way back in the OT.

By alexander, at 8:24 AM

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For more posts check out the Archives or for a specific topic use site search tool.

Something is happening across Britain today: a new kind of church is beginning to appear; increasing numbers of christians (recent research suggests between 40 & 100,000) are starting to gather in homes, colleges and work places. Living out a 24-7 faith, they are missionally focused with a 'go to them' dynamic instead of a 'come to us' invitation. These communities are small, fluid, organic, reproducible and most of all simple; so simple that any believer would respond by saying "I could do that!"

The aim of this site is to connect, report and resource these new groups. If you'd like to know more check out the vision page.

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